MysterD
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
From: Massachusetts, USA |
 Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:44PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:19 (GMT) by Shugart
Bioware - An invisible background check every 10 days is a TOTALLY reasonable anti-piracy check. This is much preferable to having to find my DVD and insert it in the drive each time I want to play.
Find your DVD? You can't find where you put them or something?
I have a shelf loaded w/ over 230+ PC games. It doesn't take long for me to find my game disc.
Quote: Please do what you need to do to protect your hard work against piracy. Yes, it is a shame that legitimate consumers need to be "burdened" with copy protection. It is also terrible that we need the "burden" of a police force in the real world too.... but get over it.
I would MUCH prefer that PC devs do something that helps curb piracy than watch my beloved PC gaming hobby be relegated to the dust bin of also-rans.
It is good that Bioware and EA want to kill piracy -- but really, though; at what expense?
They already are losing a lot of customers b/c of employing such vicious tactics for a SP-game (Single Player). If this was a MMO or MP-based game, nobody would really care about the frequent Internet checks -- b/c the Net Connection is required to play online with people around the globe.
If somehow a copy of MEPC game gets out w/out any protection around comes out, that copy won't be hindered by any checks. Why should a legitimate buyer of MEPC have to pay money to be treated like he's a pirate when he isn't the pirate?
Quote: Is it *honestly* a problem to have your computer call home to verify the copy?? I'm honestly missing the onerous burden placed upon the user with this one....
Say you, the legitimate MEPC owner, has lost their Internet connection -- and it's say not on your end, but your ISP's. What now? Will you be locked out of your legit copy of your game for NO REASON?
Say you, legitimate MEPC owner, tried to get your copy verified online from its online check -- but, for some reason, EA and Bioware's servers are down. Or say, too many MEPC users are booting MEPC at once to get verified and you just can't connect for a good while -- whether it's 2 minutes, 20 mins, or 1 hour or more. That's an inconvenience. So, will the game boot b/c you can't get your legit copy verified?
That's not fair at all to the legit user. There should be a better system for weeding out pirates, I think. It's not really fair to the legit user to be treated like a pirate, especially when a pirate who should not be playing MEPC is playing the game w/out any protection NO PROBLEM whatsoever. There has to be a better system -- a system causing NO complications to the legit user, but ALL the nasty complications to the pirate.
Maybe Iron Lore was really onto something, when they embedded their Titan Quest game w/ secret copy protection so if a pirate didn't have it and tried to activate a quest, the game would just kick you out to the desktop -- hilarious! Meanwhile, legit user who bought the game and has the disc in the drive, he ran the game w/out any crashes when he activates a "quest" in the game.Edited By MysterD on 05/06/08 22:48 |
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DosFreak
Game Owner
 NWN
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 13 Dec 2002 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:47PM |
I went through Part 1 and Part 2 of the activation threads and created a FAQ. You guys can pillage the information for your FAQ if you want:
Click Here |
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Thanatos45
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
NWN 2: SoZ
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
From: The realm of windmills, tulips and clogs |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:47PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:19 (GMT) by Shugart
Unbelievable. It seems that people pick the most inane things to complain about.
Bioware - An invisible background check every 10 days is a TOTALLY reasonable anti-piracy check. This is much preferable to having to find my DVD and insert it in the drive each time I want to play.
Well, no. First, if I buy the game and my internet decides to freak out for whatever reason I can't even play a game I've paid my hard-earned money for. Second, not everyone has cable internet. Some people are still on dial-up (which requires logging in into the internet to re-authorize your game, which costs money. Not to mention the fact that you'll need to be online for the entire installation process, which will take time and money too.) or do not have internet at all because they live in some backwater town where internet isn't as readily available as in the big city where you and I live. Or do not have internet for whatever other reason. This means they can't even play the game, even when the game has no multiplayer whatsoever. No, I vastly prefer having to stick the DVD into my machine.
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Anti anti- powergaming & RP build nerfing |
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iwillnotbuyMEPC
Joined: 06 May 2008 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:50PM |
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[removed] Edited By Derek French on 05/06/08 23:01 |
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MysterD
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
From: Massachusetts, USA |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:50PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:47 (GMT) by Thanatos45 Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:19 (GMT) by Shugart
Unbelievable. It seems that people pick the most inane things to complain about.
Bioware - An invisible background check every 10 days is a TOTALLY reasonable anti-piracy check. This is much preferable to having to find my DVD and insert it in the drive each time I want to play.
Well, no. First, if I buy the game and my internet decides to freak out for whatever reason I can't even play a game I've paid my hard-earned money for.
Right.
Quote: Second, not everyone has cable internet. Some people are still on dial-up (which requires logging in into the internet to re-authorize your game, which costs money. Not to mention the fact that you'll need to be online for the entire installation process, which will take time and money too.) or do not have internet at all because they live in some backwater town where internet isn't as readily available as in the big city where you and I live. Or do not have internet for whatever other reason. This means they can't even play the game, even when the game has no multiplayer whatsoever.
Agreed.
Quote: No, I vastly prefer having to stick the DVD into my machine.
Agreed 100% -- especially for a Single Player game.
You know, Hellgate: London had it right. The SP portion is protected by the game DVD. Meanwhile, the MP portion doesn't require the game disc b/c it is protected by your online game account. |
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lmimmfn
Game Owner
Jade Empire:SE
Joined: 06 May 2008 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:55PM |
LEARN FROM 2K, 3 ACTIVATIONS IS NOT ENOUGH, WE NEED 5 AND WAY TO DEACTIVATE
Sorry for the uppercase, but i urge you to increase the minimum number of activations to 5, Ive been waiting for this since the 360 release( and even considered getting a 360 for it ), however the phone home every 10 days was disappointing enough, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY i can buy this game with 3 activations with all the hardware upgrades i go through and OS reinstalls.
Theres 0 reason to not have it at a reasonable 5 because it as long as 2 computers arent playing at the same time its neglible
Learn from Take 2 and at least consider increasing it, Take 2's forums went mental on Bioshocks release from peoples installs crashing using an activation etc.
Youre only encouraging people to either pirate or download cracked .exe's just to run the damn game. I buy all my software legitimately but i had to resort to a crack for Bioshock because i had upgraded hardware, OC killed my XP install and i moved house and couldnt get phoneline installed for 6 months for broadband connection
Im not buying this game unless theres 5 activations or theres a .exe crack out sorry
AGAIN GIVE US 5 ACTIVATIONS AND DEACTIVATE METHOD |
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RealityEngine
Game Owner
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 10:59PM |
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/52547
More to come, for sure.Edited By RealityEngine on 05/06/08 23:05 |
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senduran
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR Xbox
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
Mass Effect
Joined: 18 May 2002
From: Cambridge, England |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:00PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:42 (GMT) by Derek French Quote: Even if it is wrapped around the .EXE program, do you know for certain that it won't:
c.- Demand a system reboot if I have used Process Explorer (A Microsoft certified application by the way)
We use Process Explorer here. It no longer requires a system reboot if you use it, but you do have to exit Process Explorer. That is a SecuROM thing.
If it doesn't spawn extra processes as you claimed, why on earth does it still need to protect itself by requiring Process Explorer to be quit?
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Dragon Age Central: FAQ & Information: http://www.dragonagecentral.com/ |
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Derek French
Technical Producer
Joined: 16 Oct 2001
From: Euphoria |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:04PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 23:00 (GMT) by senduran
If it doesn't spawn extra processes as you claimed, why on earth does it still need to protect itself by requiring Process Explorer to be quit?
I don't know, but I do know I can run Process Explorer after ME starts running. /shrug
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I'M IN YER BLOGZ, KILLING YER MARKETINGZ! |
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d0dak
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
NWN 2
Joined: 06 Mar 2004 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:05PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:19 (GMT) by Shugart
Unbelievable. It seems that people pick the most inane things to complain about.
Equally fascinating how differently people value various aspects of the matter at hand.
Quote: Bioware - An invisible background check every 10 days is a TOTALLY reasonable anti-piracy check. This is much preferable to having to find my DVD and insert it in the drive each time I want to play.
That's your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to be holding.
Rest assured that a lot of people don't share that opinion, though.
I most definitely do not agree with it.
I agree with the part about not having to insert the optical media every single time, of course, but that's not the point.
Quote: Please do what you need to do to protect your hard work against piracy. Yes, it is a shame that legitimate consumers need to be "burdened" with copy protection. It is also terrible that we need the "burden" of a police force in the real world too.... but get over it.
I can only assume from your words above that you do not yet understand that these copy protection measures actually do not work? That they provide no such protection?
A false sense of security is no security.
The "burden" of which you speak is utterly unnecessary, since the mechanism causing it provides no real protection in the first place.
Quote: I would MUCH prefer that PC devs do something that helps curb piracy than watch my beloved PC gaming hobby be relegated to the dust bin of also-rans.
Indeed. I couldn't agree more. I myself do what I can by buying the games I like, which up until now have included several Bioware games, of which I've loved them all.
Instating meaningless copy protection mechanisms that are in reality worthless and utterly ineffective in actually combating piracy, while they DO subject ME, the paying customer, to more trouble (real and potential) than the dis-honest non-paying people using a cracked copy, does not constitute "doing something" in reality.
Your whole response reeks of "Do something! Anything!" but lacks a deeper understanding of the underlying issues, the faulty premise on which this kind of "protection" mechanism is based (and thus fundamentally flawed) and the obvious breech of trust between the company and its customer:
- The paying customer in this case bears the burden of being subjected to a regular check of proving they are not being a pirate.
- The pirate is not subjected to any such check, since there IS no such check in the cracked version (released at, soon after, or even before the real product hits the shelf.)
- The pirate gets the better product.
- The mechanism does not work in the first place.
Really, it doesn't. The whole premise of a copy protection mechanism on a locally installed application in the context of a physical computer under full control of the would-be attacker is theoretically broken on the most basic level.
Ask any information security specialist the following question: What is the long-term security of a computer under physical control of the attacker?
The answer you'll get is: None at all.
The above is the gist of the whole issue. People appear to be missing that point again and again.
I can only assume that this lack of information theory knowledge is the reason that companies are still buying into using this kind of so-called protection mechanisms - unaware that they in reality have no effect on piracy. None, whatsoever.
Quote: Is it *honestly* a problem to have your computer call home to verify the copy?? I'm honestly missing the onerous burden placed upon the user with this one....
Yes, it *is* a problem. Honestly.
The problem isn't so much about it being a "burden" per se. It's more about a question of trust between me, the customer, and the company from which I bought my product.
I'm the honest, paying customer. I resent being subjected to having to prove my innocence while the pirate does not have to do any such thing.
Do you still not see the point and problem here?
(The whole discussion regarding the technicalities of what problems people might encounter due to the particular choice of mechanism here isn't something I'm very interested in discussing. That's trivial stuff. My point, which I'm trying to hammer in, is of a more fundamental kind. Whether it'll have any effect at all, only time will tell.)
Over and out. |
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quako33
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:07PM |
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Well, I am glad at least that the higher ups did not force a DVD check in addition to the new activation policy. I always thought it silly in some multiplayer games that check for duplicate CD keys in use require a CD in the drive as well.... |
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Kevin Lynch
Moderator
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: NS, Canada |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:08PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 23:04 (GMT) by Derek French Quote: Posted 05/06/08 23:00 (GMT) by senduran
If it doesn't spawn extra processes as you claimed, why on earth does it still need to protect itself by requiring Process Explorer to be quit?
I don't know, but I do know I can run Process Explorer after ME starts running. /shrug
At least it's good to know Process Explorer doesn't kill the activation, as it did when I tried to install BioShock (and at the end of the install, no less). I didn't have Process Explorer running, but I had run it some time in the past and hadn't rebooted my system. Took a while to figure out that I needed a reboot to clear up the install issue.
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Whoever saves one life, saves the world entire.
- from Schindler's List |
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MysterD
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Jade Empire:SE
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 09 Nov 2001
From: Massachusetts, USA |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:11PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 23:07 (GMT) by quako33
Well, I am glad at least that the higher ups did not force a DVD check in addition to the new activation policy.
If they REALLY want to "protect" the game more so than they're already doing, they might as well have; hehe! 
Quote: I always thought it silly in some multiplayer games that check for duplicate CD keys in use require a CD in the drive as well....
Agreed.
I mean, MMO's/MP games, which require you to use the Internet, really should only need the Net itself and your actual game account to validate your game key. |
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Hamarabi2006
Game Owner
 NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR Xbox
NWN 2
NWN 2: MotB
NWN 2: SoZ
Mass Effect
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 25 May 2007 |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:24PM |
I love Bioware games, so the news of this new copy protection scheme is very disappointing. I despise piracy, because it hurts the companies that create the wonderful games that we all love. But...
I will not be buying Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Mysteries of Westgate, or Spore (That's approximately $160) or any other game with this type of protection scheme, because the method is frustrating, insulting, possibly illegal, and just plain wrong! I very much wanted to play these games, so it is with deep regret that I must stand firm with my decision to decline these investments. If anything goes wrong, through no fault of my own, I would be denied the ability to play a game that I paid for and that is unacceptable. Infuriating!
I'll stick with games from companies like Stardock / IronClad such as Sins of a Solar Empire. Your executives need to take a look at this game's sales figures (No Copy Protection) and read a more enlightened opinion with regard to piracy which IronClad subscribes to (Recently, they wrote an article about piracy: Click Here
I wish Bioware the best.
Sincerely,
Hamarabi2006
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Time, as a coordinate measure, is some times confused with the perception of time.Edited By Hamarabi2006 on 05/06/08 23:27 |
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Chris Priestly
Community Coordinator
Joined: 17 Oct 2001
From: Behind an Evil desk in Marketing |
Posted: Tuesday, 06 May 2008 11:27PM |
Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:42 (GMT) by Derek French Quote: Posted 05/06/08 22:08 (GMT) by senduran
Is it possible to get extra confirmation on this? People on other forums refuse to believe it.
Beyond me saying it twice, I don't believe that there would be anything I could say that would convince you.
I'll say it to if it helps since it is the truth.
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Like a great predatory piano, I sit silent in the darkness. Until it is time to attack and then I strike in a cacophony of violence and ivory keys. |
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