LuminousLupine
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 Posted: Tuesday, 03 November 2009 07:04PM |
Quote: Posted 11/03/09 17:45 (GMT) by Nightwriter
You're saying you don't think we meant enough to him for him to "hate" us.
I get that, and I agree. Perhaps hate was too strong a word - perhaps what I meant to say was "contempt". He has a great contempt for organic life. He believes we should be squashed, and rightly so. He believes, or wants us to believe, that we have little value. "Before us, you are nothing." I was merely saying that this attitude of his must lend itself to motive somehow. He behaves toward us in a contemptuous fashion. Do we agree on that?
More food for thought. Close, I was thinking he was just doing a job, and just happens to dislike talking to us when we do contact him. Not that he cares one way or another about us personally.
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*The protheans pull up to the drive though*
Sovereign: Hello, welcome to the apocalypse drive though. My name is Sovereign, how may I help you to day?
The protheans: Dude! Your trying to kill me, why?
Sovereign: You're a meat bad and squishy, and short lived.
The protheans: What!? That's not a reason!
Sovereign: There is someone behind you, please pull though. If you have any question, please talk to management.
The protheans: You will rue the day!
*Shepard pulls up to the drive though*
Sovereign: Hello, welcome to the apocalypse drive though. My name is Sovereign, how may I help you to day?
Shepard: Dude! Your trying to kill me, why?
Sovereign: (here we go again) There is someone behind you, please pull though. If you have any question, please talk to management.
...
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/03/09 19:06 | 
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Tuesday, 03 November 2009 08:03PM |
Lol! Cute scene. Very illustrative.
But LuminousLupine, your suggestion is based on the assumption that the Reapers stop to chat as long with all the races they exterminate. I don't imagine they do, for the very reasons you've illustrated: it serves no real purpose, and it can become a bit tiresome.
I don't think they stopped to explain themselves to the Protheans. I don't think they've stopped to chat with hardly any of the previous races as long as Sovereign stopped to chat with Shepard - and those were extenuating circumstances. I think they just killed everybody without stopping to answer questions.
Ah, are you fed up with my endless banter yet?Edited By Nightwriter on 11/03/09 20:04 | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Wednesday, 04 November 2009 12:04AM |
Tired of having my ego endlessly fed? Pft, Whatever! 
Some good points are made, Nightwriter, and I get to do nothing but exercise 'the old gray matter' and work on logical reason? I'm in paradise! Classics don't get old, but they do lose their edge. There are only so many books you can read before you can just mental read cover to cover in your head. A good round table is priceless! I couldn't have image half the stuff I've imagined without the other posters! I'm a parasite like that. 
I think your right they didn't stop to send memo's the the races, 'Would you be available Sunday for the complete genocide of your race?' What do you respond to that 'No, Sunday is full, but Wednesday is fine' ?
I don't think the reapers are psychopaths, or in for random killings. I think they need a deliberate clear cut reason to. Sovereign wasn't excited to talk to Shepard, but he wasn't all that apposed to it until he opened his mouth. [edit]I wonder if he said something that made Sovereign nervous. [/edit] ("Better to be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.") Sovereign, Saren, Benezia, or who know how many others had ample opportunity to spread war, discord, death, famine, and disease at will! If they wanted they could have taken shots at the Normandy a few times, or just come after it directly in force! Stealth or no stealth.
I think Sovereign had a emotion base to work with, but I'm not sure it had anything to do with why. Speaking of Saren and Benezia, who or what else else has Sovereign played 'God' with and manipulated? The Krogan? The Geth?
He had or allowed Saren play the good little soldier for a while to stay in the shadows, but who else has he put strings to make dance?
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/04/09 00:14 | |
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Wednesday, 04 November 2009 09:29AM |
That's a good question - and I'm glad you're still up for banter  . A lot of people think he had a hand in siccing the rachni on the rest of the galaxy. I mean, the plan failed, but it might make sense that he was behind it. But that was over 2000 years ago. Long time to wait between attempts, isn't it? But then again, Reapers are known for patience....
I guess what I'd really need to know is when exactly Sovereign woke up, saw that the galaxy was ready for harvest, tried to activate the Citadel, and found that it would not respond. That's what started all this. From whatever that date was, on, we can expect the behind the scenes string pulling began. But how long ago was that? If it was over 2000 years, he may have had a hand in the rachni after all.
Something I'd like to know is the Reaper's anatomy. I mean, I get that the ships are their "bodies", so to speak, but where exactly are their consciousnesses stored? In every part of the ship? Is there some kind of central brain in the ship that you can hit and it's lights out? How many parts of the ship can you hack off and the Reaper still live? Can a Reaper's consciousness be transferred outside its body? Downloaded into something else?
These are are the things I'm curious about, for some reason... | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Wednesday, 04 November 2009 02:48PM |
"Tommy? What's wrong ,lover, Don't you like my new look?" - S.H.O.D.A.N.
Another question to throw out there as I chew over the above.
Not directly touched, but IF they build the relay network and IF they traveled out to 'dark space' to build a relay there to come back from they have demonstrated an ability to travel the galaxy, outside it, and beyond it. I wonder if they're something that came from else where for a reason entirely unrelated to us, and are just following some completely unknown directive. (Beserkers, JaegerBane?)
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/04/09 14:50 | |
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Wednesday, 04 November 2009 11:24PM |
Hmm. Interesting. Where d'you suppose they do come from, then? Do you think they came from dark space originally? Or another galaxy?
Just what exactly is dark space, anyway? Let's talk about that. I'm not really 100% on the meaning behind it. Is it just uncharted space? Space beyond the fringes of the known galaxy? Or is it something more? | |
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JaegerBane
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Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 12:00AM |
Quote: Posted 11/04/09 23:24 (GMT) by Nightwriter
Hmm. Interesting. Where d'you suppose they do come from, then? Do you think they came from dark space originally? Or another galaxy?
Just what exactly is dark space, anyway? Let's talk about that. I'm not really 100% on the meaning behind it. Is it just uncharted space? Space beyond the fringes of the known galaxy? Or is it something more?
Intergalactic space, as far as is mentioned by Vigil. Basically billions of light years of complete vacuum between galaxies.
A pretty good place to stay hidden. | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 12:06AM |
Edit: What JaegerBane said! 
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_space
It's the dead void of space outside a galaxy the symphony of symmetry and impossible odds inside a galaxy. (Do you know there are rouge stars flying around non-linear courses that have been doing so for eons! They should flying into one another and lighting up the sky every few centuries or so, but I don't remember once that ever being recorded!) Which is a big blank spot in the reapers motives. Why go out there and hibernate in the first place?
What do they have to hide from that they have to sleep off the ages?
(Seems we keep asking questions, and don't have many answers. Still silence from the honorable development team?)
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/05/09 00:14 | |
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Saurumn39
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Joined: 18 Feb 2009 |
Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 06:01AM |
=-{Patrick Stewart voice over}-=
Dark space. The Final Frontier. These are the Voyages of the Starship Normandy, it's continuing mission to track and chat up all Reapers everywhere! [Cue music]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvrIFIjTGt0
You guys are the best. These discussions continuously spark my "Little Grey Cells"
_________________
"There are two kinds of people who sit around thinking about how to kill people. Murderers and mystery writers. I'm the kind who pays better."
-Richard Castle | |
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 05:29PM |
Cool video. Just watched it  .
Thanks for the info on dark space, guys. Very helpful.
Ah, more questions for the question forum, LuminousLupine? Awesome. One of the devs did post here, once, BTW, but they haven't since. Theories and discussions tend to be in constant movement in this forum; maybe this is why. Or maybe their attention has since wandered from us avid questioneers  .
Anyway - why do the Reapers hibernate, you say? Sounds like something new to discuss. It seems most unnatural that a machine would do so, to me. I think what I would consider is whether they do it for convenience (to kill time until new civilizations rise up) or for necessity (they for some reason have to hibernate, for survival, or to conserve resources).
What do we think? Why do they do it? | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Thursday, 05 November 2009 08:38PM |
(Sorry, I got distracted with trying to figure out if EA is a evil corporation or my computer has been turned into a zombie and launching DoS attacks on EA. Don't ask.)
Mr. Lamden? Yea, that maybe all they can say, or I may have scared him off with my 'It's confirmed joke. No more questions for now, I'm trying not to drift too far off topic.
There was speculation (by no one in piratical  ) in the Mass Effect 2 forums as to the status of Sovereign or his corpse after the battle at Citadel Station. I can't find the thread now, but yea, Nightwriter, I'm wondering if Sovereign is really dead. Ever play System Shock 1 or 2?
The parallels are not word for word, but you can see it's influence if you've ever played them. In a nut shell, S.H.O.D.A.N. is a evil AI that gets "killed" in the first game, but not before downloading lesser copies of her self into Earth's networks. These copies do all kinds of damage before they're disposed of. In SS2 S.H.O.D.A.N. survives in what amounts to a USB flash drive that floated though space for some 30+ years before crashing on 'Tau Ceti 5' and being dormant for another five or so, iirc. She's then run across by the "starship Von Braun", the ship your on, and after the ships resident geek plugs her in 'bad stuff' starts happening.
I can see Sovereign popping up again. Either jumping ship before it got destroyed or someone picking up some wreckage some months later wondering "Hey, What could go wrong?". Or as speculated in the ME2 forum, Cerberus resurrects him.
Edit: I wonder what the keepers do with the debris. He was a reaper, and they never really turned on them. They just stopped acknowledging orders from them.
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Why hide in dark space? That's the 1,000,000 dollar question. Vigil says they hibernate to conserve energy, but why go out there in the first place? I think the theories so far are:
- They're evil, and that's what the plot says evil does! (Wouldn't be much of a plot as it is if this legion of unstoppable machines wasn't locked away somewhere only Shepard could keep them locked in.)
- They're under the authority of something greater that say "You will go to dark space, and you will like it!!". Something is keeping them in exile, but allows them to return every so often.
- They're programmed to, and just doing as they're told.
- They're laying low to keep hidden from prying eyes as some secondary objective to their real objective.
- They don't like the heat?
Even with the nice link from Saurumn39, I'm still a little lost as to why they care. There are so many peaces to the puzzle missing. We barely have a outline.
The a few clues we can walk away with though. They've already been touched on, but here is the bibliography of them.
Quote: Shepard: "Why would you construct the mass relays then leave them for someone else to find?"
Sovereign: "You're civilization is based on the technology of the Mass Relays. Our technology, by using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."
After that he changes the subject.
Quote: Shepard: "Where are the rest of the reapers? Are you the last of your kind?"
Sovereign: "We are legion! The time of our return is coming..."
After that he goes into a speech of how we're all doomed. That however, is the last thing he says before Joker chimes in he's on his way. (What he was doing before that I don't remember.)
Which leads me to believe he was expecting something from us or of us, that he concluded he wasn't getting, then decided that was enough. So, He abandoned what he was doing and made Shepard a priority.
It wasn't slaves or resources either.
Quote: Shepard: "What do you want from us? Slaves? Resources?"
Sovereign: "My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation..."
I don't think he mean a multiplicity like I thought before. I think he means he doesn't need anything from us, he has his own 'nation' to support him.
Quote: Sovereign:"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your comprehension you can not even image it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign!"
I don't think he's naming him self, I think he's just saying he's sovereign over us.
sovereign
–noun
1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4. a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914.
–adjective
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10. efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.
 I was going to say something else, but it slipped my mind!
Edit2: Btw, no, I'll not call this person by name because it's not my place to call this person out, but at least one other dev has expressed a interest in the thread. I just think they're hands or tied.
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/05/09 20:45 | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 12:57AM |
I think I may have just figured out why Sovereign stopped to play 20 questions with Shepard. He wanted information! Perhaps he turned to attack Shepard because he him self gave out too much, look at what Shepard did with it!
In the video link Shepard makes the observation Sovereign isn't a reaper ship, but a reaper. Sovereign replies something to the affect of "Reaper? Oh yea, that's what they called us."
I stopped to think when Sovereign learned the name reaper. He couldn't have learned it until after Saren decoded the data, and the second beacon was right behind Shepard! With the way Sovereign greeted Shepard ("You are not Saren") with contempt I think he was expecting Saren! [edit]Ok, that goes without say, but I think that's why he was bitter about it.[/edit] I think that was the enture reason for that room! I think he just happens to recognize Shepard as another source of information; However, maybe because he was used to dealing with indoctrinated push-overs, he realized he wasn't getting anywhere. Hints "This exchange is over!"
"This exchange is over!" 
I think that is where Saran told Sovereign about the conduit, I think that is what that room was for, and I think that's what Sovereign was expected of Shepard, More information. Not that he was indifferent to it.
I'm not sure why he attacks I still don't know, but I think I just put to together why he bothered to talk to Shepard, a year or two later. (Wow, I'm slow!) Not that puts me that much closer to the answer to the OP.
Edit: If nothing else I'm at least that much closer to crawling inside Sovereign's head.
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/06/09 01:01 | |
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:13AM |
Uhh... okay, I won't ask you about your zombie computer. Good luck with that, though.
Yeah, I remember that thread about Sovereign's remains. I visited it, and I remember all the speculation. Especially about Cerberus.
But I’ve never played System Shock. Your description of it was pretty good though. After reading it, I could see something like that happening with Sovereign. Some idiot uploading mysterious tech into his computer out of curiosity…. Or, in Cerberus's case, out of scientific interest and clinical stupidity.
I do wonder, as well, what the keepers might do with Sovereign's remains. I have thoughts as to whether they'd even get to them, though. The Council, I imagine, would make sure to snatch it all up first. And anyway, how many keepers are there actually outside the station in zero gee where the remains are floating? Just a thought.
As for why the Reapers go into stasis –
You seem to have concluded that they hibernate for “necessity” rather than “convenience” – or, at least, all your bulleted items seem to lean that way. Nice. It’s clear they go into dark space because it’s a perfect place to hibernate. No one can disturb them there. But you’re right, what’s not clear is why they hibernate at all. Lot of blank spaces.
Personally, I think when Vigil said they needed to conserve energy, it was very telling. A race of supreme eternal machines that need to conserve energy to survive...? They're advanced, but they're still dependent upon some type of exhaustible resource.
Which is why it threw me when you said this:
Quote: I don't think he mean a multiplicity like I thought before. I think he means he doesn't need anything from us, he has his own 'nation' to support him
What do you mean? If he doesn’t need anything from us, why do you suppose he and his kind do this? I admit the things he said were hard to interpret. He said they were each a nation, independent – but did he mean each of their motives were independent, also? So tell me a little bit more about what you mean, if you please.
And do mine ears deceive me? There's another dev interested in this forum? And you won't tell me who? I'd pout, but I've found it's a harder thing to pull off online. Ah well. | |
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Nightwriter
Joined: 12 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 01:33AM |
Sorry, time lag - I just read your most recent post. You added it while I was still typing mine. Getting ahead of me.
Outstanding. Perfect explanation. That really would explain why he bothered to talk at all - to glean information! Wow.
He would only ever have talked to Saren, and here the only other person in the galaxy who's been touched by Prothean technology comes strolling in, the very person who's opposing Saren's push? He'd want to talk to Shepard, to figure out what he knew. Awesome. That's not slow, that's awesome.
I can just see Sovereign staring at Shepard with his little Terminator vision during that conversation, target reticule zeroing in. "Potential hostile... nature unknown... information needed... assessing... assessing... assessing..."
And then in the end those big red letters: "THREAT DETECTED. THREAT DETECTED. HOSTILE ORGANIC."
I wonder, then, what all he was able to learn form us during that conversation? | |
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LuminousLupine
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Posted: Friday, 06 November 2009 04:26PM |
Quote: Posted 11/06/09 01:13 (GMT) by Nightwriter Uhh... okay, I won't ask you about your zombie computer. Good luck with that, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_computer
Quote:
...
You seem to have concluded that they hibernate for “necessity” rather than “convenience” – or, at least, all your bulleted items seem to lean that way. Nice. It’s clear they go into dark space because it’s a perfect place to hibernate. No one can disturb them there. But you’re right, what’s not clear is why they hibernate at all. Lot of blank spaces.
...
What do you mean? If he doesn’t need anything from us, why do you suppose he and his kind do this? I admit the things he said were hard to interpret. He said they were each a nation, independent – but did he mean each of their motives were independent, also? So tell me a little bit more about what you mean, if you please.
...
They're a nation something like a aircraft carrier is a city. Sure they require input of resources, but they don't need anything from anyone. They can gather and process those resources without help. He doesn't need anyone for spare parts or to gather materials. He can get the raw materials him self and make his own spare parts.
Quote: "My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation..."
I have another theory now too. One of the line Sovereign (I'm just going to start calling him 'Sov' ) drops is "..., and At their apex of their glory, they are extinguished." Interesting word apex.
apex–noun
1. the tip, point, or vertex; summit.
2. climax; peak; acme: His election to the presidency was the apex of his career.
3. Astronomy.
To use that word he has to have judged them to go as far as they can go, and they can go no higher. Sov also seems to have a high and mighty view of it's kind. What was it wrex said?
Quote: "Anyone who fights us is either stupid or on Saren's payroll. Killing the latter is business. Killing the former is a favor to the universe."
Quote: "Anyone who fights [the reapers] is either stupid or on [a feeble creature of blood and flesh]'s payroll. Killing the latter is business. Killing the former is a favor to the universe."
I wonder if they attack because of their own free will they just deem the rest of the galaxy unfit to live? The Citadel Station, the Mass Relays, and everything else are just there as a example of 'If you where prefect like us, you'd do the same! However, sense you're not and not going to get better, it's time to kill everyone and start over.'
"Why they attack theory #781: They attack because they're jerks with a God complex."
Edit: Of course all that depends on Sov telling the truth.
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth...Edited By LuminousLupine on 11/06/09 16:34 | |
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