LuminousLupine
Game Owner
 NWN
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NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 29 Mar 2003 |
 Posted: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 08:25PM |
Question: If the Normandy had to travel for a extended period of time from the nearest relay to the Mu Relay to get to Ilos, then presumably another extended period of time to Ilos, How did it still manage to meet Shepard at Citadel Station when he instantly arrived there and just barely?
It presumable took the Normandy many hours if not days or weeks to travel from Citadel Station to the Mu Relay then to Ilos. Shepard had time to think things over and even fraternize with his crew. Yet mere minuets after his arrive at Citadel Station the Normandy shows up and asks for instructions...
What gives?
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Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth... | 
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Zandercode
Game Owner
 SW: KotOR Xbox
Jade Empire
Mass Effect
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
From: Kashyyyk |
Posted: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 08:53PM |
This is the only thing I can think of that comes close to being a plot hole in Mass Effect. But even this can be explained even if it is a bit of a stretch.
Ok, first of, the time it takes to get from the Mu relay to Ilos is almost zero, if you remember, the Ilos was actually literally right next to the Mu relay, you can see ilos in the cutscene right behind the relay and the Normandy flies towards it. So it was probably no more than a few minutes or even seconds of space travel between Ilos and the relay.
Now, looking at this picture...
Click Here
...It seems Ilos is only 3 relay jumps away from the Citadel. It is never made clear in game just how long such a trip would take. It all depends on the travel distance between the next connection, so where the distance between a certain two relay connection may take days to reach, others may take only minutes to bridge that gap. So it could have just as easily taken them a week to get to Ilos as it could have taken them only 4 or 5 hours.
Considering the amount of time needed for Shepard to interact with his/her crew and for the love scene to take place, it could still have been the latter (4 or 5 hours).
With that in mind, does that not sound about right? Assuming the Normandy starts heading back towards the Anduras Sector (as Joker mentions when Shepard is at the Citadel master control unit), almost immediately after the Conduit's nature is discovered (the talk with Vigil). I think the time it takes Shepard to get to the Conduit, get to the elevator in the Presidium, then walk up the Citadel Tower from the outside in zero-g fighting dozens of geth and krogan, then fight through the Council Chambers, talk to and defeat Saren, and finally establish contact with Joker on the master control unit... could have easily taken 4 or 5 hours, even if it doesn't literally play out that long for all players, afterall, there could have been a couple skips in the timeline between the scenes near the end anyway.
Now, like I said, it is a stretch, but at least it can be explained and it is possible.
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Check out my Mass Effect Movie in this topic, third post down:
Click HereEdited By Zandercode on 10/27/09 21:00 | |
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Nemein
Game Owner
 Mass Effect
Joined: 29 May 2008 |
Posted: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 08:58PM |
Shepard had to fight through alot of things on the Citadel, and only in the end when confronting Saren did the Normandy show up. I'm guessing they got sent there when they realized the Geth were on the move and attacking with Sovereign. Not that hard seeing as the entire Geth fleet were orbitting Illos at the time.
Guess they just followed.
Edit: This belongs in the SPOILERS section.Edited By Nemein on 10/27/09 21:00 | |
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Sursion
Game Owner
 Mass Effect PC
Joined: 28 Jun 2008 |
Posted: Wednesday, 28 October 2009 02:40AM | |
The Normandy went to Arcturus, where the entire 5th fleet was. | |
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Saurumn39
Game Owner
 Mass Effect
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 |
Posted: Wednesday, 28 October 2009 05:31AM | |
Plus, you're fighting on the surface of Ilos itself, and that takes a while. Joker probably hung around a while but stayed close to the rely to avoid the Geth Fleet. | |
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Zulu_DFA
Game Owner
 Mass Effect PC
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 |
Posted: Saturday, 31 October 2009 02:25AM |
Well, it would probably have been more credible and consistent that upon killing Saren (for the 1st time) instead of Joker's voice we heard Admiral Hackett's asking our suggetions about the Council's fate. And no Normandy in this battle.
That would even leave room for ME2 script writers to deal with the problem of Shepard's crew: after the battle is over we're just told that Normandy didn't make it out of Ilos system. Two Shepard's companions that went with him through the Conduit could also have been killed during the Sovereign's explosion. How nicely would this outcome fit in Shepard the Ruthless' bio. Most of his unit killed on Torfan, and not one survived his pursuit of Saren. So it would make no difference if Wrex was or was not shot on Virmire and Ashley or Kaidan was left behind there.
But we do have the Normandy delivering the final blow to the Sovereign. How could this be? Let me get to the point. In fact it was my first thought when I heard Joker's voice at the Citadel: TRAVELLING THROUGH CONDUIT WAS NOT INSTANTANEOUS! Look, the mass relay jump is based on reducing the mass of the ship to the point so close to zero that the relay sends it from one point of space-time to another in one instant. But the relays were "forged" by the Reapers with their hyperadvanced technologies. They have functioned for millions of years, as Sovereign admits. Whereas The Conduit - a pair of rather small devices similar to primary mass relays constructed by the Protheans who probably could not fully replicate the Reapers' technology. Or due to its size the Conduit just lacks necessary magnitude of Mass Effect. Anyway the mass of the object sent through Conduit is reduced almost to zero but not as close as mass relays do it. Therefore, while to Shepard (and Saren) the jump through Conduit still looked like an instant, from the outside universe's point of view it took some time for them to re-enter normal time-space on the other side. What time - it's your guess. Say, a week, or a full month.
In the meantime: Mako dissapers from Normandy's sensors, half a minute after Shepard reports that he's located the Conduit. Geth fleet withdraws through Mu relay. XO Pressly orders search and rescue on the surface of Ilos but finds only three dozens decomissioned geth troopers and no trace of the shore party. It looks like Shepard did enter the Conduit. Pressly decides to return to Arcturus and report the situation to the brass. Admiral Hackett detains Normandy and her crew, contacts Cpt. Anderson & Udina at the Citadel. They say that everything is quiet there. Yet Anderson suggests to put 5th Fleet on high alert while Udina invents some cover-up story for the Council - he already envisages the coming events: Saren & the Geth attack Citadel, hit it hard, then humans come to save the day and he, Udina, gets his political bingo. He still does not believe in the Conduit or thinks it's not working, or somehow he thinks himself out of danger but it's not what really matters.
What really matters is Saren's plan. In order to ensure Sovereign's victory in the coming battle he has to lock the mass relays around the Citadel and hold them locked long enough for the Sovereign to gain full contron of the station. Othervise the Council's reinforcments come from other systems and overwhelm the Geth & Sovereign by sheer numbers (as it in fact happened, thanks to us). That's why he needs the Conduit. Probably he had made some study of it to calculate his ETA to the Citadel. He orders the Geth fleet to get to some secret rendevous point close to some backwater secondary mass relay and be ready to provide cover for Sovereign's assault on the Citadel. Then he enters the Conduit with a small but heavily armed strike team. A month later he materializes right in front of Citadel Tower elevator, goes up, his Geth shock troopers taking out a few C-Sec grunts on the way, and before anyone understands what's going on, before the fleeing Council realizes that this is not just a terrorist attack but a full scale offensive action, he sends green-light to the Sovereign. Once Sovereign and supporting Geth ships are through mass relays, Saren locks them all.Edited By Zulu_DFA on 10/31/09 02:35 | |
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Badpie
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 |
Posted: Monday, 02 November 2009 08:41PM |
Quote: Posted 10/27/09 20:53 (GMT) by Zandercode This is the only thing I can think of that comes close to being a plot hole in Mass Effect. But even this can be explained even if it is a bit of a stretch. Ok, first of, the time it takes to get from the Mu relay to Ilos is almost zero, if you remember, the Ilos was actually literally right next to the Mu relay, you can see ilos in the cutscene right behind the relay and the Normandy flies towards it. So it was probably no more than a few minutes or even seconds of space travel between Ilos and the relay. Now, looking at this picture... Click Here...It seems Ilos is only 3 relay jumps away from the Citadel. It is never made clear in game just how long such a trip would take. It all depends on the travel distance between the next connection, so where the distance between a certain two relay connection may take days to reach, others may take only minutes to bridge that gap. So it could have just as easily taken them a week to get to Ilos as it could have taken them only 4 or 5 hours. Considering the amount of time needed for Shepard to interact with his/her crew and for the love scene to take place, it could still have been the latter (4 or 5 hours). With that in mind, does that not sound about right? Assuming the Normandy starts heading back towards the Anduras Sector (as Joker mentions when Shepard is at the Citadel master control unit), almost immediately after the Conduit's nature is discovered (the talk with Vigil). I think the time it takes Shepard to get to the Conduit, get to the elevator in the Presidium, then walk up the Citadel Tower from the outside in zero-g fighting dozens of geth and krogan, then fight through the Council Chambers, talk to and defeat Saren, and finally establish contact with Joker on the master control unit... could have easily taken 4 or 5 hours, even if it doesn't literally play out that long for all players, afterall, there could have been a couple skips in the timeline between the scenes near the end anyway. Now, like I said, it is a stretch, but at least it can be explained and it is possible.
Zandercode, you are the king of timelines. 
But I have to admit the OP gave me pause. I was like "......hey yeah!" 
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Elcor are good dancers. | |
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The_Real_Lee
Joined: 13 Jun 2009 |
Posted: Monday, 02 November 2009 10:54PM |
The mass relays move ships at practically instantaneously from one relay to the next, what takes time is flying to the relay to make the jump. If the relays between jumps are close together, it would be completely possible.
Also, in case anyone is wondering how something's mass can decrease, it is actually something we are researching right now. In the equation E=MC squared, the "God substance" gives the mass, and we are trying to isolate it now. I'm assuming that's how they move faster than light. | |
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LuminousLupine
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
SW: KotOR PC
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 29 Mar 2003 |
Posted: Monday, 02 November 2009 11:06PM |
Quote: Posted 11/02/09 22:54 (GMT) by The_Real_Lee
The mass relays move ships at practically instantaneously from one relay to the next, what takes time is flying to the relay to make the jump. If the relays between jumps are close together, it would be completely possible.
...
It could be that the relays drop one off right next to each other so the total flight time is 5 seconds. However, to do that, Joker would have had to been cruising in circles for Shepard to have time to goof off on the way to Ilos.
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth... | |
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Badpie
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 |
Posted: Monday, 02 November 2009 11:30PM |
Quote: Posted 11/02/09 23:06 (GMT) by LuminousLupine
It could be that the relays drop one off right next to each other so the total flight time is 5 seconds. However, to do that, Joker would have had to been cruising in circles for Shepard to have time to goof off on the way to Ilos.
(Shepard quietly slips Joker five bucks)
Joker: What's this for?
Shepard: I uh...I'm gonna need for you to stall the mission for about fi-ten, no 25 minutes! Definitely not less than fifteen minutes. Can you do that?
(Joker is looking at the crumpled five dollar bill wondering A - where it came from as paper money hasn't been used in a century and B - how long it has been sitting balled up and sweaty and Shepard's front pocket. He finally shrugs)
Joker: Whatever dude. Why do you need me stall?
Shepard: Oh no reason. Hey could you radio Williams and tell her to meet me in my quarters? (Shepard winks and clicks and does the hand gun thingy) You are awesome, bro.
Joker: Whatever. Just go. (Joker shakes his head in disgust).
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Elcor are good dancers.Edited By Badpie on 11/02/09 23:31 | |
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LuminousLupine
Game Owner
NWN
NWN: SoU
NWN: HotU
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Mass Effect PC
Joined: 29 Mar 2003 |
Posted: Monday, 02 November 2009 11:39PM |
Quote: Posted 11/02/09 23:30 (GMT) by Badpie Quote: Posted 11/02/09 23:06 (GMT) by LuminousLupine
It could be that the relays drop one off right next to each other so the total flight time is 5 seconds. However, to do that, Joker would have had to been cruising in circles for Shepard to have time to goof off on the way to Ilos.
(Shepard quietly slips Joker five bucks) Joker: What's this for? Shepard: I uh...I'm gonna need for you to stall the mission for about fi-ten, no 25 minutes! Definitely not less than fifteen minutes. Can you do that? (Joker is looking at the crumpled five dollar bill wondering A - where it came from as paper money hasn't been used in a century and B - how long it has been sitting balled up and sweaty and Shepard's front pocket. He finally shrugs) Joker: Whatever dude. Why do you need me stall? Shepard: Oh no reason. Hey could you radio Williams and tell her to meet me in my quarters? (Shepard winks and clicks and does the hand gun thingy) You are awesome, bro. Joker: Whatever. Just go. (Joker shakes his head in disgust).
I almost made that joke, but thought nah...
Though my version would have had Joker sucking it up as Shepard order a detour that would take no less then one hour. (He is the skipper...)
_________________
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth... | |
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Murmillos
Game Owner
 Jade Empire
Mass Effect PC
Joined: 25 Jun 2008 |
Posted: Tuesday, 03 November 2009 12:41AM |
Quote: Posted 10/31/09 02:25 (GMT) by Zulu_DFA
I love your ideas, but I'm not sold on the month part.
I can agree to the plausibility that the reverse engineered Prothean Conduit isn't as fast as a real Mass Relay. Taking a few hours at worst - but it's still a Mass Relay.
While we don't know, nor is it important; Normandy either picks up the emergency Citadel broadcast regarding the attack and decides to hook up with the 5th fleet to head in all at once, or heads to the 5th fleet in hopes to provide info Shepard/Vigil info to the Alliance so then info can be passed onto the Council, but is too late as the surprise Geth/Sovereign attack has started.
On a site note, the Shepard Citadel tower combat scene feels more appropriate for around 2 hours. 5 hours just seems like a crazy long time for a siege which is time is the key, and not time loitering around lobbing missiles at each other. | |
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